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Post by Steve Austin on Apr 12, 2005 7:48:20 GMT -8
Hi Seb, If you look at your sketches that you have produced, I would use the second option. When setting up your template at the centerline to the ground template you would then proceed to drag radial to the ground template so that it always cuts on the leading edge. That way there is only one setup procedure, as in the second option. The same procedure applies to the roof section, radial. On the first option, if you look at the lines leading off the ground template. The left side is cutting with the leading edge and the right side is cutting with the back edge, so that means dragging either side of the centerline or a re-setup of the template to the bracket. It also requires the template to stick way out so that the bracket clears the ground template. This will lead to a lot of additional "chatter" of the template against the clay. You will also find that by dragging the front and rear radially that the appearance is more natural, than dragging parallel to the model centerline axis. It's looking good and no doubt by trying the different methods you will find the solutions that work best in certain situations. Keep the questions coming. Steve A
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Seb
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Post by Seb on Apr 14, 2005 12:58:14 GMT -8
Hey Steve, Thanks for your answer. Indeed I've found my way trying different things.... trying and learning from experience is the absolute best school. The volume is blocked in , everything went good I will upload the pictures tomorow. Seb
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Seb
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Post by Seb on Apr 15, 2005 7:47:00 GMT -8
Here we go : The pictures of the volume blocked in. As I said everything went well after some trial and error. Now I know how to repair a delaminated area The surface are very slick and sharp despite the different colour areas. I think it’s one of the property of the clay, for sure something we’ll learn to improve using finishers and steels. You can also see that my front template was too long near the windshield so more clay has been removed in the low sides of the windshield. Don’t worry it will be dealt in an upcoming stage ( as you always say Steve ! ;D ). I’ve understood the next step (cutting in the wheel openings) but I’m going to give it a little break to make some tools and be sure everything I learned is well assimilated. See you Thx Seb
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Post by Steve Austin on May 31, 2005 13:43:41 GMT -8
OK Guys, It's been a while, I've had a vacation, I've had some minor surgery so nows the time to move on. I've progressed the model a little bit so let's see where we are. This image shows the ground template for the front fender shape. A vertical template is clamped to the angle bracket and the shape is dragged in for the front fender and corner of the bumper. The shape has been dragged in and as you can see, the form blends into the body side. Make sure that the clay extends beyond the wheel opening so that you have enough material for shaping the fender form. Check this by marking on the the wheel opening. The same process is used for the rear fender. Ground template and drag in the form for the rear fender, blending into the body side and rear bumper. Again make sure there is enough material for fender development. As you can see from the image, the front and rear ground templates with the basic form dragged in. The front plan shows the balanced front fenders in place. The rear plan shows the balanced rear fenders in place. Here we have the complete plan with the basic form in place. Make a front wheel opening template from your master drawing. I found that it was symmetrical enough to use for the rear opening as well. Ensure that you have the centerline marked down to the bottom so that you can line it up with the centerline on your modeling board. Mark the shape onto the clay and proceed to cut-out the excess with a carving gouge. This makes for a very simple operation. Repeat the process for the rear fender. Here we have both the wheel openings cut-in and enough material above for fender development. Well guys I guess I need to move on and further this model at quicker pace. If you have any other questions don't forget to post. Steve A
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Seb
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Post by Seb on Jun 2, 2005 1:03:33 GMT -8
Hi Steve, great to see you back with new good stuff ! thx Seb
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Post by guest on Jun 15, 2005 16:49:47 GMT -8
wow, very nice work so far. Nice clean surface. Did you achieve all of that with using just a teplates?
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Post by Steve Austin on Jun 16, 2005 7:04:56 GMT -8
Hi Guest? The current images that you see are all unrefined and straight off the template. Surface refinement starts after the initial blocking-in of the surfaces. Why not sign-up as a full member and enjoy the full benefits of the forum? Steve.
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Seb
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Post by Seb on Jun 17, 2005 0:16:31 GMT -8
Hello all, Steve is right Guest, come on and participate to the growth of this great place ! Cya Seb
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Seb
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Post by Seb on Jun 17, 2005 8:41:17 GMT -8
Hello Steve, as you know I'll come back on my model in about 2 weeks. Currently I'm working on another project using clay too. I post my question here because I know it will be an issue when I'll work on the C2 model soon. The clay I use contains sulphur, and as you know if this type of clay is heated too much you get small yellow crystals so it's not possible to work anymore. The best advice you gave to me was to rough the surface and heat both the surface and the clay you want to add. The problem is that if I rough the surface plus heat it, it's very easy to get a mess or to burn the clay... When I look at your last pictures you seem to have not roughed the surface before adding new clay. So I suppose you just heated the surface with a heat gun and added your new warm clay. Do you add small amounts at a time? I really think that the sulphur is an issue ( or maybe the fact that I am a newbe lol ) because it's difficult to find the "safe area" between having delaminating and burning it. I've previously tried some Y2Klay sulphur free from Chavant and it seemed to be easier to deal with when adding new clay. Off course for my model I’ll stay with my Eberhard Faber (the quality of the surface is better anyway). Now I feel very comfortable with clay, the only limitation is this story of adding some new clay without burning it or getting a messy surface or a lack of bond. Cya Thx Seb
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Post by MasterModeler on Jul 27, 2005 21:37:54 GMT -8
In regards to the question a few posts above about how to drag the front & rear templates.
I may have misread the advice, but it sounds like the advice was to drag radially against the plan view template (2nd drawing)?
If you are dragging to an accurate plan view template & you drag radially, the plan view will not be correct. All drags should be done like drawing (1) if accuracy is important to you.
If the leading edge is the issue for dragging radially, then the drag template needs to be thinner. A 1mm acetate template stuck to a masonite backing with double stick tape will allow you to make your drag like drawing 1 & maintain your accuracy.Just make sure the backing is cut back as to not interfere with your clay drag.
In my humble opinion, some of the templates posted, particularly the aluminum templates are way to labor intensive....very nice, but not nessacary. Dragging should only be used as a starting point, after the surfaces are dragged the hand modeling begins.
Remember, the section that is given for the body drag is only good for one very small area on the body side, not the entire side. If for example, the section given is L-26, a knife line on L-26 is the only area that should not change. Same goes for CL on the roof, front & rear. Depending on what height the plan veiw info was given, a horizontal line at that height is the only area that should not change....everything in between has to be hand modeled to capture the feeling of the car.
Hope this doesnt upset anybody...only trying to help!
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Post by claychat on Jul 28, 2005 8:58:36 GMT -8
Further to the dragging question,
Using either drawing 1 or 2 would produce the same results regarding the plan shape because they are both set up on the centreline and they both follow the plan shape template, the only difference would be the thickness of the dragging template interfering with the clay surface, that is why I would prefer to drag radially because every surface on a car is a radius and it is the natural thing to do. It also avoids the dropped jowl look on the corners when using method 1. Method 2 is also far more pleasing to the eye.
When we used to make clay models by hand years ago we would use a plan on the floor and drag radially to get the first shape, we used a foot around the angle bracket sliding on the floor to keep the template 90 degrees to surface. This of course would never be the finished surface. The designers would always require changes, we would hand model the change and use a steel band to drag the new plan shape which would be again radial, this is the only way that you can maintain the offset on a bumper for instance, I have never seen it done any other way until the onset of milling where the machine is travelling in straight lines across the model but it still finishes up radial.
This competition is for teaching the basics of clay modelling how it used to be done before Tarus milling and not about deadlines, so it doesn't matter about how much time is spent on making templates, in a professional environment you would soon learn how to cut corners but for now it is supposed to be for fun. When making a clay model there are no fast rules the idea of using clay in the first place was because it is very easy to change quickly so when a modeller and designer get good communication with each other the results can be truly amazing.
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Post by MasterModeler on Jul 28, 2005 19:43:20 GMT -8
Didn't mean to start a debate here, but you are mistaken. Try it yourself, drag a section on the front near the corner using method 2 & then check it using method 1. I think you will find that it will be off. Why start with a plan view drawing if you are not going to honor it??
A finished drag surface is not meant to be pleasing to the eye, it is meant to capture the correct section & plan view of the surface you are dragging.
I realize that this exercise is meant to be fun, but it also seems that others are trying to learn from this as well. Why not point them in the right direction?
I wont interfere with any teachings going on here anymore.
By the way, anybody interested in a trainee clay modeling position & you live in the US, contact me - toyhunt2000@aol.com
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Seb
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Post by Seb on Jul 31, 2005 13:45:52 GMT -8
Hi guys, I really appreciate to see some interesting points of view here. I’ll try to make an answer tomorrow cause I’m too busy right now. It’s very difficult to find some time to model the c2 but I won’t quit till it’s finished. I have few questions I hope you’ll have the opportunity to answer. MasterModeler, about your trainee clay modeling position, I’m your man. Why limit yourself to US residents when you can have the best, who lives in Europe haha. Anyway, thx for your input . More questions tomorrow. Seb
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Post by MasterModeler on Jul 31, 2005 19:57:39 GMT -8
Seb, sorry the candidates have to have US citizenship because these are permanent positions with all the benefits. I wish it were different, I like your enthusiasm!!
Good luck on your model.
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Post by Steve Austin on Aug 2, 2005 8:28:42 GMT -8
OK Guys, Now everyone's totally confused with the issue of dragging in a bumper to a ground plan. To set the record straight, either, method one or method two will ensure accuracy to the ground plan providing the template is set up on the centerline. The furthest point out on your template should correspond with the centerline of your plan board. With the template clamped to your bracket and dragged around the form the ground plan will be transfered to your model giving you the exact replica of the ground plan on your model at the widest point, therefore retaining accuracy. The only time that this will differ is if you tilt the bracket over and remove too much clay. I've provided a few images, hopefully large enough so that you can see. The first image shows the setup on the centerline. the second image shows the template as in method 1. The last image shows the template as in method 2. Each will provide you with the correct plan on your model. Once again to prove the accuracy theory, the above images show a combination square placed against the ground template and projected up to the model. As you can see, regardless of what angle the square is placed against the ground template the plan is projected onto the model to provide you with the widest point, therefore retaining accuracy. Now let's get to the point of the differences between the two methods. We'll take method 2 first as this was the preferred method that I indicated. If you imagine the curve of the ground plan being a section of a larger circle, by dragging radially you are always keeping the template square to the point of origin. What this means visually in surface treatment is, the illusion of more material being removed on the underside of the bumper towards the outer edges than in the center portion, thus visually giving a natural lift to the form, a more sculpted appearance. The sectional shape has been retained because it has been dragged radially. With method 1, dragging parallel to the centerline will also retain accuracy and sectional shape. The only difference visually is that the form will be parallel to the floor when viewed from behind giving an almost wooden appearance as in the vehicles of the 70's, an unsculpted appearance. Either method is used purely as a starting point to give you the best possible basis for your model. Here is a couple of images taken from the publication "Clay Modeling" Techniques for giving three dimensional form to idea by Yasusato Yamada. This is one of the only publications that has remotely dealt with clay modeling techniques in the written form. Used for many years by many art students as the "go to" book to assist them in their modeling techniques. Use your judgment and assess your model, which method is right for you. As you experiment it will become clear which way to go. Have fun!! Steve A
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